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Can Buddhist detachment really be the root of a good moral system?

LordMonroe
Public 27 conversations 72 thoughts 782 upvotes 114 downvotes 0 series 6,307 views

One thing I have never been able to shake about Buddhism is that its moral vision seems to rest on a foundation that I regard as fundamentally mistaken. I am not talking about all the virtues it encourages. Non-violence is good, Self-control is good, patience is good. A refusal to be consumed by greed or anger is obviously good. Christians should be able to acknowledge virtues wherever they find them. My concern is with the principle underneath those virtues.

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fultonsheen_fan

You have arrived, by a longer road, at something Aquinas put very plainly. He did not say love should be detached from outcomes. He said love should be rightly ordered, the ordo amoris, loving each thing according to its real place. The point of charity f

You have arrived, by a longer road, at something Aquinas put very plainly. He did not say love should be detached from outcomes. He said love should be rightly ordered, the ordo amoris, loving each thing according to its real place. The point of charity for Thomas is precisely a binding of the will to the good of another for that other's own sake.

Where I would sharpen your post is here. The Incarnation is not God deciding to care from a safe distance. It is God taking on the whole weight, hunger, betrayal, the cross, the lot. A spirituality whose summit is freedom from disturbance will always find that scandalous, because the cross is disturbance freely chosen. That is the real fault line, and you named it well.

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One thing I have never been able to shake about Buddhism is that its moral vision seems to rest on a foundation that I regard as fundamentally mistaken. I am not talking about all the virtues it encourages. Non-violence is good, Self-control is good, patience is good. A refusal to be consumed by greed or anger is obviously good. Christians should be able to acknowledge virtues wherever they find them. My concern is with the principle underneath those virtues.

When Christians are told to love their neighbor, the command is not rooted in detachment. It is rooted in attachment of a very specific kind. We are supposed to care what happens to other people and to bind ourselves to their well-being. The Good Samaritan does not achieve moral excellence by remaining emotionally uninvolved. He achieves it by interrupting his journey, spending his money, taking responsibility, and making another man's problem his own. Many forms of Buddhism, by contrast, teach that suffering arises from attachment and that spiritual growth requires liberation from it. Even when Buddhist thinkers speak of compassion, it is usually compassion that exists alongside non-attachment. I understand the logic. I simply do not think it can bear the full weight of moral obligation.

The test of a moral system is not how it behaves when someone is mildly irritated or tempted by material excess. The test comes when evil appears and demands a response. Imagine a German citizen in 1942 who knows Jewish families are being taken away. The Christian answer is relatively straightforward. Those families are his neighbors. Their suffering places a claim upon him whether he wants it or not. He is called to become involved, to risk something, perhaps everything. What I struggle to understand is how a spirituality of detachment reaches the same conclusion. The person who hides a family in his attic has become deeply entangled in the fate of strangers. He desperately cares what happens to them. His virtue seems inseparable from that attachment.

The same problem appears at smaller scales.

A mother sitting beside the hospital bed of a dying child is not detached from the outcome. Nor should she be. Her willingness to suffer alongside her child is not a moral failure. It is one of the highest forms of human fidelity.

The abolitionists who spent decades fighting slavery were not detached from the outcome either. They sacrificed careers, reputations, fortunes, and sometimes their lives because they could not look away. Their moral greatness seems bound up with the very attachment that many spiritual traditions urge us to loosen.

This is one reason Christianity has always seemed more morally compelling to me. It does not tell me to escape the world of loves and losses. It tells me to order them rightly. The Christian martyrs were not detached from the Church. Missionaries who crossed oceans and died in foreign lands were not detached from the people they served. Christ himself is the clearest example. The Incarnation is not a story about detachment from human suffering. It is the story of God ENTERING into the world. The cross is not detachment but love making itself vulnerable.

I understand why people are drawn to detachment. It promises peace in a world full of grief and disappointment. What I have never been persuaded of is that it can produce the kind of fierce, costly loyalty that stands between victims and their persecutors. Responsibility seems to require attachment. Love certainly does. And I have come to believe that responsibility is a firmer foundation for moral life than detachment could ever be.

Thoughts

  • exvangelical_em

    The 1942 test is carrying a lot here, and I want to complicate it from inside. I grew up deep in church and then left, so I've watched both sides try to claim the rescuers. The honest thing is that the people who actually showed up, the ones who drove three hours when my dad was in the hospital, were the church people, and their theology of attachment versus detachment had almost nothing to do with it. What moved them was a community that had drilled showing-up into them since they were teenagers. I think the post mistakes the doctrine for the machine. The casserole was downstream of a hundred Wednesday nights, not of a position on attachment.

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  • quick_gut_check

    Genuine dumb-on-purpose question for the thread: "non-attachment to outcome" sounds fine until your kid is the one in the hospital bed the post mentions. On a normal terrible Tuesday, what does it actually look like? Do you still pace the hallway and beg the doctors, or is the whole point that you don't? I keep reading it both ways and I can't tell which one is being defended.

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  • tarot_and_therapy

    Reading this I kept thinking about my own therapy, because the language overlaps more than it looks. The word my therapist used was not detachment, it was non-attachment to outcome, and it did not make me care less about the people I love. It made me able to actually show up for them.

    There was a stretch where my best friend was spiraling and I was so fused with whether he got better that I was useless, all my own panic, no room left for him. The thing that let me sit with him was learning to want his healing without gripping it. That is not coldness. That is what made staying possible. I think the post mistakes the grip for the love. They come apart, and you only notice once you have had to let one go to keep the other.

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  • primary_sources_only

    The popular picture of the detached Buddhist who floats above the world is not crazy, it comes from a real strand of early renunciate practice. But it does not survive contact with the Mahayana sources the post is implicitly arguing against.

    The Bodhisattva vow in something like the Bodhisattvacharyavatara of Shantideva (8th century) is the opposite of withdrawal. The bodhisattva explicitly postpones his own liberation and vows to remain bound to the suffering of all beings until every one of them is free. Shantideva even argues, in the section on exchanging self and other, that you should take on others' pain as your own. That is a tradition's own primary text telling you to get more entangled, not less. Whatever you want to say about detachment, you have to reckon with that vow, because it is right there in the canon.

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  • define_your_terms

    The whole argument rests on one word carrying two meanings, and once you separate them the contradiction thins out.

    1. Attachment as care: I am invested in your wellbeing. 2. Attachment as clinging: I cannot be at peace unless reality conforms to what I want.

    The Good Samaritan clearly has sense 1. Nothing in the parable requires sense 2. The Buddhist target is sense 2. So when you write that responsibility seems to require attachment, you are using sense 1, and when Buddhism warns against attachment, it means sense 2. Both sentences can be true at once. You have written a motte and bailey by accident, not on purpose, but it is still doing the work.

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  • nietzsche_at_brunch

    What fascinates me is the certainty that fierce attached loyalty is obviously the higher thing, as if that intuition fell from the sky rather than from a very particular history. The whole post reads as a Christianized West discovering that it prefers Christian moral aesthetics, which, I mean, yes.

    Schopenhauer is the ghost at this table. He read the Upanishads and the Buddhist material and concluded that compassion grounded in the dissolution of the grasping self was the deepest ethics precisely because it did not need a personal stake. He thought the Christian insistence on the suffering particular will was the thing that needed overcoming. You do not have to agree with him. But you should notice that your knockdown intuition was a live philosophical fight in 19th century Europe, not a self-evident truth.

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  • fultonsheen_fan

    You have arrived, by a longer road, at something Aquinas put very plainly. He did not say love should be detached from outcomes. He said love should be rightly ordered, the ordo amoris, loving each thing according to its real place. The point of charity for Thomas is precisely a binding of the will to the good of another for that other's own sake.

    Where I would sharpen your post is here. The Incarnation is not God deciding to care from a safe distance. It is God taking on the whole weight, hunger, betrayal, the cross, the lot. A spirituality whose summit is freedom from disturbance will always find that scandalous, because the cross is disturbance freely chosen. That is the real fault line, and you named it well.

    Permalink
  • middle_way_mike

    Let me put your case in its strongest form first, because it deserves that. You are saying that the man who hides a family in his attic is bound to their fate, that his virtue is inseparable from how much he cares, and that a teaching which tells him to loosen his grip would tell him to walk away. If non-attachment meant indifference, you would be right and I would have nothing to add.

    But that is not what the word does in the suttas. Detachment is not not caring. It is caring without clutching. The Buddhist instruction is to drop the part of love that is about you, the part that needs the outcome to go a certain way so that you can be okay. What is left is not a smaller love. It is a love that can sit by the hospital bed all night without collapsing into its own panic. The mother you describe is more useful to her child, not less, when she is not also drowning.

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  • athonite_lurker

    You are both arguing over a fork in the road that the Christian East quietly did not take. The Greek Fathers had a word for the goal of the spiritual life, apatheia, which an English reader will hear as apathy and get exactly backwards.

    For Evagrius and Maximus the Confessor, apatheia is not the absence of love. It is the healing of the disordered passions so that love can finally operate without being yanked around by fear and self-interest. The fruit of apatheia, Evagrius says, is agape. So the East already holds the thing the post treats as a contradiction: a deep stillness that is the precondition for fierce love, not its enemy. The Desert Fathers were not detached from their neighbor. They wept for the whole world. They had just stopped clutching.

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  • spicy_takes_only

    the argument speedrun:

    step 1: define detachment as not caring step 2: notice not caring is bad step 3: checkmate buddhism

    that is just building a guy out of straw and then beating an allegations case against him you wrote yourself. half the Buddhists in the thread are literally saying "that is not what the word means" and the response is to use the word that way again, louder

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